Paid studies for everyone? The cost for a student is up to PLN 450,000

The Deputy Minister of Science and Higher Education reveals the calculations of the Ministry of Science and Higher Education on paid courses of study. If the state stopped supporting universities, students would have to pay up to PLN 20,000 for a year of economics. Medicine is to be even more expensive. - I consider the introduction of paid studies to be a bad, harmful idea, although I am happy about the social discussion about it - Karolina Zioło-Pużuk tells WNP.PL.

• Studies such as economics and management could cost from 16 to over 20 thousand PLN per year - says Karolina Zioło-Pużuk. The Ministry of Science calculated how much students would have to spend if the state stopped supporting universities.
• The Deputy Minister of Science announces changes in the evaluation of universities, which are intended to eliminate pathologies such as publication factories.
• Zioło-Pużuk argues that a realistic goal for the government may be to increase spending on science to 2.5 percent of GDP.

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Is a dean showing his penis to his employees standard in Polish science?

No, this is not the norm. This type of behavior should certainly not take place in any professional environment, and even less so at a university, which should be a safe, respectful, and professional place. I am very pleased that the Rector of the University of Warsaw responded to the information about such a case.

Eight months after Daniel Przastek was elected Dean of the Faculty of Political Science and International Relations, ten months after Gazeta Wyborcza published the first reports of mobbing against employees. The last straw was the newspaper's report on indecent exposure.

I am not an employee of the University of Warsaw, so I was not familiar with this matter. I cannot answer the question of whether the ministry knew about it.

Andrzej Szeptycki, deputy minister of science, is also a subordinate of the former dean Daniel Przastek. He works at this faculty, as do many other politicians from all camps.

I can say that when I was the vice-dean of student affairs at the Faculty of Humanities UKSW and we received any signals about not very good or not entirely professional lecturer-student relations, we tried to talk to these people, listen to them. Although I will say right away that we have never had such drastic cases, they were much less serious. The basis is always a quick reaction and a professional, impartial explanation of the matter. I believe that the wronged people are in a very difficult situation and I hope that they will receive help.

Due to the principle of university autonomy, the Ministry does not interfere in its internal affairs unless it is informed of irregularities.

However, I want the mechanisms for monitoring cases of mobbing and other inappropriate behavior to function effectively, so that no one has to experience harassment. I believe that the wronged are in a very difficult situation and that help should reach each of them.

And if they don't receive it? Does the ministry have any influence over the rector, who knew about the case and still appointed an employee accused of mobbing to the position of dean?

I will emphasize once again: in Poland, the principle of university autonomy applies. Of course, this does not mean that we are indifferent to all irregularities. The Ministry has the tools to react in situations that raise concerns, for example by ordering an inspection. However, I would not like to suggest that an inspection will be ordered in this particular case.

There are also disciplinary procedures. This applies to all cases, not just the most sensitive ones. The Ministry therefore has appropriate mechanisms in such situations. But above all in Poland, in the case of allegations of mobbing, including against the dean, proceedings are conducted to clarify the matter and hold those responsible accountable.

Only that this situation is harmful to everyone. At the same time, there is a discussion about increasing spending on science to 3% of GDP. It will be easy to refute these postulates now. Look: Polish science is pathology.

Such theses are harmful, especially against the environment, and I would not like to repeat them.

Of course, there are voices saying that mobbing in the scientific community is not uncommon, and that it affects employees, PhD students, and students alike.

We want to take this subject seriously. I mean solutions concerning anti-mobbing commissions, for example, I think we will be able to say more about it soon.

But this is the moment to say it.

We recently published a report prepared by SWPS University on behalf of the Ministry of Science and Higher Education, it was the “Analysis of research on mental health and quality of life in the academic environment.” We received comprehensive data and are taking action, including by implementing preventive programs and psychological support for students and university employees, or removing systemic barriers that affect the well-being of the academic community.

We started thinking about how to do this over a month ago to avoid secondary victimization of people who reported mobbing. Maybe anti-mobbing committees shouldn't be selected from the same environment they evaluate? I also think that the entire ecosystem of science needs to be changed, among other things, the current way of evaluation doesn't build a good atmosphere of trust and cooperation.

How does a university's evaluation affect whether a dean takes his penis out in front of an employee?

The highly hierarchical structure encourages inappropriate behavior. Additionally, the current way of evaluating universities introduces enormous pressure on the number of publications, which resembles corporate competition.

As a result, teaching positions are often filled by scientists perceived as having failed to publish enough.

How to raise the prestige of teaching?

For example, including its importance in the evaluation. The details of how to do this will be determined by the evaluation team, but we hear from many groups that this factor should be taken into account.

For example, student opinions?

We need to think seriously about this. I believe that the evaluation team will also propose a solution that can be implemented in this area.

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Jarosław Gowin ruined Polish science?

The Act 2.0 authored by Jarosław Gowin unfortunately reinforced many negative phenomena. It unpredictably commercialized science – but not in the good sense, i.e. by making it more competitive, interesting and international, but rather in the direction of emphasis on quantity , not quality, i.e. reinforcing negative phenomena in the field of publishing activities and pressure on scientists.

Additionally, one of the effects was the underestimation of publishing in Polish. After all, it is also our duty to promote knowledge on the domestic market – publications in Polish are also needed and valuable.

Here you have something in common with Przemysław Czarnek.

Maybe so, but he implemented it in a way that simply should not be used. Additionally, many valuable humanities and social science journals were marginalized by the former minister – solely because they did not fit his worldview. However, there is more that divides us from Minister Czarnek.

And now you will be giving points for…

It is not “us”; it is the Science Evaluation Commission that evaluates journals. Now experts will have a greater role – and they will prepare the list. I hope that at the beginning of next year we will learn about the new list of journals and publications, which will be valid for the entire evaluation period. Of course, with the reservation that in the event of significant changes, e.g. the disclosure of unfair practices, the list may be corrected. But in general, the point is for the system to be stable and predictable – so that scientists can calmly plan their activities.

Minister Wieczorek said that there are too many universities and that they may have to be merged. Will you work on consolidation?

Right now we have 1.2 million students, the projection for 2029 is exactly the same number. We know that it will probably go down in the future, but it's not binary either.

Today we are talking about universities being able to increase their potential through federalization. This is something completely different than consolidation, because there is no talk of, for example, one rector.

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I'm asking about this mainly in terms of money. The fewer students there are, the smaller the subsidies. And that in turn leads to fewer positions or a reduction in the number of employees.

We are working on having more money in the system. Secondly, the unions have a demand to reduce the teaching load, which I identify with. A smaller teaching load would allow for more research. I will emphasize once again: I am not in favor of closing universities.

And for students to pay for their studies? Sławomir Mentzen would like that.

I think it's a bad, harmful idea, although I'm happy about the social discussion about it. It has exposed many interesting myths about education.

Meaning?

There are people who claim that there are more or less socially necessary fields. They indicate medical and engineering fields as necessary, the rest is irrelevant, hobbyist.

Except that in this understanding all the courses that educate teachers of Polish, geography and so on are unnecessary courses. This best shows that there is nothing else in this argument than pure populism.

Especially since these ideas are heading in the direction of making universities exclusively private.

But with scholarships for the most talented students.

I think there is some thought behind this that a student just sits, drinks beer and wastes money. However, this is not true, a student does not drink beer, but very often combines work with studies. Besides - how many of the most talented can there be? What about students who are simply average, who could only later develop into good experts, and due to paid studies they will not get such a chance?

Do you have any analyses that would show what would happen if Mentzen's idea were implemented?

I asked the Department of Budget and Finance in the Ministry of Science to calculate how much studies would cost without state support. Imagine that a 6-year cycle of medical studies could potentially cost around PLN 318,000 at universities other than IDUB (Initiative of Excellence – Research University - ed.) and around PLN 450,000 at IDUB universities. Studies of other types, such as humanities or social sciences, including economics and management, could cost from PLN 16,000 to over PLN 20,000 per year.

No one will seriously analyze the situation regarding paid studies and completely private universities, without state support, because it is simply completely absurd.

Madam Minister, we can have a president who talks about it directly.

In the UK, tuition fees were raised to a maximum of over £9,000 a year – this was while I was completing my PhD there.

I remember that many people had to take out additional loans to finish their studies, which resulted in them becoming poor. They couldn't afford, for example, renting an apartment and providing themselves with basic living needs. They had to sleep at friends' houses or in the library.

And I didn't live in London, I lived in Sheffield, where housing is much cheaper. Paid studies are not the solution. Investing in equal opportunities, in student accommodation and other forms of support is, and the ministry is doing that.

Will Donald Tusk liquidate the Ministry of Science and Higher Education after the presidential elections?

I think it's good that there is a separate ministry dealing with science, it's hard for me to say otherwise. The Ministry of Science and Higher Education is sometimes combined with the Ministry of Education and this does not always bring the expected results.

They can be combined with the Ministry of Development.

It would all depend on where we see the sense of functioning of science and higher education, how much we would like to connect them with today's market and today's social situation. I think that it is not an optimal solution to look only through the prism of today's economy. The specificity of doing science means that it is not ad hoc. If we reduce it only to such functions, it will lose the sense of social existence.

Is there a chance for 3 percent of GDP for science in this government?

The target of 3% of GDP for research and development is very ambitious and should be treated as a challenge for the future. Currently, only 5 European countries have reached this level - Austria, Germany, Belgium, Sweden and Finland.

Currently, if we look at all expenditures – both from the budgets of individual ministries and overall – we are at a level of around 1.5% of expenditures on research and development. The European average is 2-2.5%.

First, we should approach this value and only then strive for 3%. However, no one questions that this is the optimal level – and this is the direction in which we will head.

Minister Domański doesn’t question it either?

The Prime Minister's speech at the Stock Exchange and meeting with the scientific community are the best proof that everyone knows that science is simply the guarantor of our better future.

When it comes to financing science, are you more in favor of the idea of ​​giving all universities the same amount? Or investing in national champions?

Investing in champions is of course very important and we should have many programs that cause investment in champions, but we must support all entities in this system equally. It is our duty to support those who are the best in Poland and on a global scale. However, this does not mean at all that we should forget about those who do other work. I hope that no one will agree to this.

And how to support the best ones?

We have a program for the best research universities and the best scientific institutes of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Just a few days ago we announced the start of IDIN for PAN Institutes.

These universities may be surviving in the program due to publication fraud.

We are evaluating the IDUB program and working on new rules. We are not closing our eyes to problems – a team for unethical publishing practices has been established and I hope that its activities will contribute to the development of effective methods for both counteracting such phenomena and detecting them quickly. I am talking here about, among others, so-called publishing cooperatives.

How to deal with them?

This is not an easy thing. Thanks to the discussion about the ethics of publication and publicizing bad practices, less money is spent on these predatory journals (those where publication is basically dependent solely on payment - ed.). We are also working with the Information Processing Center on a system that would allow for identifying publications withdrawn by publishers. Such works would not be taken into account in the evaluation.

The community itself has noticed that such practices end badly – ​​scientists show specific examples of works pumped out in so-called citation cooperatives or even purchased.

Will there be any consequences for people who are documented to be guilty of publishing fraud?

There are departmental ethics committees that can look into this.

But what if the rector, who is the employer of its members, is involved in the procedure?

No one is above the obligation to follow ethical principles.

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